Curse

Sheriff · Sep 21, 2007, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Hi,

It's obvious that major runes aren't mostly being used. The prices of superiors and minors sometimes go over 1k, but almost nobody uses majors. They need to be rebalanced.

My suggestion would be to lower the hp penalty from 35 to 25.

What does everyone think?

Thanks in advance,
Sheriff

MagmaRed · Sep 21, 2007, 08:56 AM // 08:56

/unsigned

The work fine the way they are. Maybe you weren't around when they had -50 health instead of -35. They were already 'fixed' and don't need another change. I personally use 2 Major Runes on most of my heroes. Not only cheaper, but effective.

Darkobra · Sep 21, 2007, 09:27 AM // 09:27

-10 health more won't make a difference. People will mostly use superiors over majors when possible. One person I even PUGged with had 105 health as a necromancer with all superior runes, died in one hit and claimed he knew what he was doing...

FelixCarter · Sep 21, 2007, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

-10 health more won't make a difference. People will mostly use superiors over majors when possible. One person I even PUGged with had 105 health as a necromancer with all superior runes, died in one hit and claimed he knew what he was doing...

I don't know why... But that made me laugh... Like REALLY hard.

I rofled all over my floor and on my keyboard... It's all sticky.

Sheriff · Sep 21, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

/unsigned

The work fine the way they are. Maybe you weren't around when they had -50 health instead of -35. They were already 'fixed' and don't need another change. I personally use 2 Major Runes on most of my heroes. Not only cheaper, but effective.

I've been on GW since the beta weekends in 2004, so I do remember a lot :-)

People use 2 major runes on heroes only because it's cheaper. I know, since I do the same :-) I would still use 1 minor + 1 sup instead if I could so easily afford to do so.

Kale Ironfist · Sep 21, 2007, 09:52 AM // 09:52

They also use two majors because it gives you +4 on attributes at a cost of 70 health. If you can afford to not reach 16 ranks in an attribute, it is more cost effective to use two majors than a superior and a minor.

It's like having another survivor insignia

!

Sheriff · Sep 21, 2007, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

They also use two majors because it gives you +4 on attributes at a cost of 70 health. If you can afford to not reach 16 ranks in an attribute, it is more cost effective to use two majors than a superior and a minor.

It's like having another survivor insignia

!

For a measly sacrifice of 5 hps (75 vs 35+35), I'd rather have my (or my heroes') main stat at 16.

For a difference of 25 (75 vs 25+25) I would think twice...

Lycan Nibbler · Sep 21, 2007, 10:13 AM // 10:13

/unsigned

As has been said, they've been "fixed" already and plenty use majors, just majors drop more often (demand and supply).

Phoenix Tears · Sep 21, 2007, 10:15 AM // 10:15

whole rune system needs imo a change, so that the runes really become more valuable, so stronger they and and not vice versa, that cheap runes cost more money, than the strongest ...

Minor Runes should be like this:

+1 Attribute (stack) and then there are different versions of little malus:

-25HP, - 7 Energy, -7 Defense while not attacking, -15% gain of Adrenaline and so on.
Not only malus on HP, thats silly ...

Major Rune is then slightly better, but naturally rarer and so more worth ...
Still +1 (non stack), but lets you receive 1 Energy per 10 seconds (stack)

-20 HP, -5 Energy, - 5 Defense while not attacking, -10% gain of Adrenaline.

Superior Rune then again slightly better, again rarer, but not perfect
+2 attribute (non stack), receive 1 Energy every 10 seconds (stack)

-15 HP , -3 Energy,- 3 Defense while not attacking, -5% Adrenaline gain

and then finally the new green runes

"Almighty" Rune
+3 attribute (non stack), receive 2 Energy every 10 seconds (stack)

no malus, absolutely rarest stuff, drops only in dungeon chests of the elite dungeons.

that would be 1 way of improvement for the rune system I'd love to see ingame.
For those, who will may whine about "imba" this are only examples, numbrs and % are exchangeable, or to make out of stack non stack ..all no problem ,for balancing, i made this example here with GW:EN hard mode in mind and i think, this system here would fit well.

it makes out of the strongest runes the most valuable, because, who wants to wear a minor rune, that is weaker, then an almighty rune, which gives u no malus and only benefits, + 3 attribute as when wearing an old superior rune, and a slightl energy heal of 1-2 energy per rune every 10(x) seconds, when 10 is imba, then maybe every 12-15s ...

Then we would have also something finally versus lame 55 HP farm builds... but when anet thinks, they should exist, fine, should they then raise simple the health malus from the focus item from - 50 HP to - 400 HP -.-

arsie · Sep 21, 2007, 10:24 AM // 10:24

You have more attribute points to spare with two Major runes, but one Superior rune allows you to get an attribute to 16.

Two Major runes and one Superior rune should have the same health penalty, but 5 difference is insignificant.

I think it's at the right penalty at the moment. To be completely honest, I feel that Minor runes should have a 5 health penalty, to reflect the value of +1 attribute hats and +1 attribute 20% weapon mods. You did not hear me say that. *smack self*

Edit: wrong number.

the_jos · Sep 21, 2007, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

-10 health more won't make a difference. People will mostly use superiors over majors when possible. One person I even PUGged with had 105 health as a necromancer with all superior runes, died in one hit and claimed he knew what he was doing...

Well, he was in the wrong spot at the wrong time, that's for sure.
However, while running a 105HP necro can be a risk, it does not have to be a problem. For example, low health Order necros are still valuable in ToPK or other areas where they can stay out of aggro.
In DoA, there was/is the 1HP BiP build, which is even more extreme.

On topic, runes are not that much about health loss as they are about breakpoints.
If major or superior gives real advantage, use those. If not, use minor.
For example, 16 death magic allows a MM to control 10 minions, 15 death only 9, same for 14 death. So you use either superior or minor rune, not major.
As long as there are no significant breakpoints at 15 and you are willing to sac some life for extra attribute, use superior.

Sheriff · Sep 21, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

On topic, runes are not that much about health loss as they are about breakpoints.
If major or superior gives real advantage, use those. If not, use minor.
For example, 16 death magic allows a MM to control 10 minions, 15 death only 9, same for 14 death. So you use either superior or minor rune, not major.
As long as there are no significant breakpoints at 15 and you are willing to sac some life for extra attribute, use superior.

Thank you, I think this is yet another reason why major runes are at the moment of little value. You can't get max attributes with them, and you get high enough hp penalty to worry about taking more than 2.

I'll look at my heroes at the moment (I have 16 PvE chars, so enough heroes!!!) and don't see a single situation in which a couple major runes give me any advantage over 1 minor + 1 superior.

Antheus · Sep 21, 2007, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

-25HP, - 7 Energy, -7 Defense while not attacking, -15% gain of Adrenaline and so on.
Not only malus on HP, thats silly ...

-7 energy? -7 when not attacking?

Do you really play only a wammo? This is completely game breaking.

Quote:

"Almighty" Rune
+3 attribute (non stack), receive 2 Energy every 10 seconds (stack)

Yay for balance. This is absurd.

The reason major runes don't get used, is because everyone is so obsessed with using only superior ones. With exception of a MM, there's not a single other PvE build that would benefit from having 16 instead of 14 in a stat, at cost of 75 health.

thor thunder · Sep 21, 2007, 12:06 PM // 12:06

/unsigned
the -HP isnt that bad you can do fine with 330hp or 55hp with the right skills (lol)
its all in what skills you use an how you use them.

Darkobra · Sep 21, 2007, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixCarter

I don't know why... But that made me laugh... Like REALLY hard.

I rofled all over my floor and on my keyboard... It's all sticky.

I was sitting like ".........-.-". I found it amusing, but not HILARIOUS! No, no. It gets... BETTER! 6 minutes later...
"My health is 1 of 1!"
"Told you, you were an idiot for using those runes."
"OMG FU! I KNOW WHAT IM DOING K?!"
".... You know, normally I'd quit and go back to hench and heroes, but I actually want to see where this is going."

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Well, he was in the wrong spot at the wrong time, that's for sure.
However, while running a 105HP necro can be a risk, it does not have to be a problem. For example, low health Order necros are still valuable in ToPK or other areas where they can stay out of aggro.
In DoA, there was/is the 1HP BiP build, which is even more extreme.

This is the first I've heard of such a build. But I remember half of his skills. We were in Ring of Fire, he used Life Siphon, I THINK he was uninfused, may have just been his health, and 3 of his skills revolved around minion mastery... with jade bows. And Spiteful Spirit was his elite I think. Actually, are there any links to that build? I'm quite curious now. I want to see if he really DID know what he was doing or he was just trying to get as much power as possible while dying constantly.

Kale Ironfist · Sep 21, 2007, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheriff

For a measly sacrifice of 5 hps (75 vs 35+35), I'd rather have my (or my heroes') main stat at 16.

For a difference of 25 (75 vs 25+25) I would think twice...

For the most part, there is very little reason to bump an attribute to 16 at the cost of health. Besides, my argument was for when you DON'T need it at 16.

You have to remember that the dual major vs superior and minor rune have to be close in effect due to the extra ranks you get. Both give +4 ranks overall, but the superior+minor combo allows you to reach 16 whereas the dual majors save you 5 health. 25 health is a bit much of a difference for those who want to attain 16 over those who use dual majors.

arbiter · Sep 21, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

actually i only use minor and major runes now, i think superior runes are what needs to be fixed, that -75 health doesnt seem to be worth it anymore

Snow Bunny · Sep 21, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

-10 health more won't make a difference. People will mostly use superiors over majors when possible. One person I even PUGged with had 105 health as a necromancer with all superior runes, died in one hit and claimed he knew what he was doing...

I laughed pretty hard.

You sir, win the thread.

Keep the majors as they are. Think about it mathematically.
+1 = no consequence
+2 = -35
+3 = -75.

For two +2's, you still will have 5 more health than with one +75. That is already quite good.

/notsigned, stop whining.

gremlin · Sep 21, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

I have very little use for Maj runes and just sell them to the trader.

Superior runes I use all the time they give me a good deal of in the field flexability.
Out of 11 characters 2 of them "Monk and Necro" have sets of armor with 5 Sup runes the old 55 hp style character.

all 11 use 1 Sup rune and one +50 health rune to counter the effect the other -25 is countered with a + health item.

Method all the characters head armor carries the Superior rune.
That way I have +1 in all 4 skills and +4 in one of them then during play I can move the +4 to any skill type.

Have considered using 2 Major runes but havn't done that yet

A rebalancing of the runes could be interesting to try or indeed adding another level to runes.

Items come in 4 power levels blue purple gold and green why not runes, or am I going too far with that idea ?

Antheus · Sep 21, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Items come in 4 power levels blue purple gold and green why not runes, or am I going too far with that idea ?

Items come in exactly two levels. Inscribable and non-inscribable. There is no other difference between them.

The rune penalties are pointless now. With all those PvE buffs, just run whatever, and simply buff everything into absurd.

It used to matter what you run for HM and elite areas, these days it's all easy mode so it really doesn't matter anymore.